written on the “Atheist Orlando” facebook group
David Camp: – His comment……. The absurdity of Christian scriptures…
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?
Ex 32:14
“So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people,”
jonah 3:10
When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.
numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
Amos 7:6
The LORD changed his mind again and said, “This will not take place either.”
My reply:
David Camp if i may, i would like to say something which i feel is a deeper issue “behind” these inconsistencies you have noted. As a tiny bit of background, i am not of the Christian persuasion. but i come from a Free Methodist/Holiness movement background (which is not an environment that one extricates oneself from quickly or easily…. has literally taken me decades of “mind housecleaning”) i am a practicing Zen Buddhist which places me solidly in the free thought environment. ……….While it is easy to pick out inconsistencies in most groups thinking, in my estimation, the problem with current NA Christian evangelical thought is really a deeper issue…. one of human frailty….. i say human frailty, because it is a frailty of “most” all of us ….. it often shows up in “the need to grab onto, and anxiously hold onto SOMETHING which can make our sense of inner emptiness (suffering) diminished” So the deeper issue here, would seem to be that ALMOST ALL OF US are doing this, not just one group or sect ….. all of us doing whatever we can to dodge the suffering of impermanence we feel at the root of our being….. (if looked at this way, this frailty shows up in all ideologies, in all groups, in all bars, in persuasions of all types) Soooooo….. i am afraid i may not be of any use in this group. Firstly, i would not consider myself an atheist, neither would i consider myself a theist, neither would i be willing to sit in an agnostic position. i struggle with what i see in the world, as all folks do, but do my best to stay out of politics…… i am however, very interested in honestly investigating my own human frailties, and their effect on “me” (my definition of “me” is simply “a drop of the Essence of Life, clothed in DNA for a lifetime). I am a North American, but not an American, and i would rather investigate myself, and all the other humans i know, from the perspective of human frailties, and how to free us from suffering, than to demonize one group (although i spend a lot of time trying to coax Christians out of their incorrect thinking, i recognize that it is due to a deeper human frailty)…… we ALL cling tightly to a creed, or an activism, or some form of medicating (drugs, booze, sex, busyness, incessant thinking) , as a way of lessening our suffering….. but as Buddha said, this only leads to more suffering……. If this excludes me from this group, i thank you for inviting me. 🙏🙏🙏
Notes on the dialogue:
Firstly, these scriptures are Jewish scriptures, not Christian ones, and the real issue here is that the Christian doctrines are inconsistent with these quotes from the Jewish scriptures.
Secondly, both sides spend all their time defending their beliefs and pointing the finger at the other side. This is only satisfying for the person doing it, until the other side either surrenders, or is eliminated. Then the winning side makes their beliefs into doctrines, and the process repeats itself.
I stand fully on the Jungian side of the concept of Shadow. my paraphrase – “A person does not wish to admit to their own shadow, so they find a “scapegoat” and point their Shadow, and place their Shadow, on that scapegoat.”
It doesn’t matter if it is the Christians doing it, or the Atheists doing it, or the Muslims doing it, it is all the same thing. Just as individuals do it, so countries do it with other countries….. dodging their own shadow, pointing it at a country they decide to make a scapegoat or “the enemy”.
Reminder to myself:
If i find myself standing in a position where i “need” to focus my anger or frustration on something outside of myself, i can be certain, that this “casting the shadow” part of my ego is at play.
The answer to this is introspection.. of self-examination and self-inquiry.
As much as i want to save the world, the only effective step is to find the human frailties inside myself which create that type of ego-struggle environment. Because it is each individuals frailties, multiplied into groups and ideologies which re-create the same environment of struggle on the face of this planet.
Reality is Dharma 